State OSHA: Guns and booze don’t create workplace hazard
September 13, 2010 by Fred HosierPosted in: New rules and regulations, OSHA news, Special Report, What do you think?, workplace violence
Allowing guns in businesses that serve alcohol doesn’t create an unsafe workplace, according to an official with Tennessee OSHA (TOSHA).
A server at Jackson’s Bar and Bistro in Nashville filed a complaint to TOSHA alleging that mixing firearms and booze creates hazards for workers.
The TOSHA inspector who fielded the complaint said since there had been only two incidents involving disorderly or drunk customers at Jackson’s since January 2009, a new law allowing guns where alcohol is served doesn’t create a workplace hazard.
However, information obtained by The Tennessean shows there had been nine incidents during the period involving drunk or disorderly people at the bar, but only two required police response.
Attorney David Randolph Smith, who is representing the server, said multiple appeals are being prepared. One of the appeals may be to federal OSHA.
A Tennessee Department of Labor spokesman said the ruling involving Jackson’s shouldn’t be interpreted as a finding on the new gun law as a whole.
The new law allows permit holders to carry guns into businesses that serve alcohol, as long as they don’t drink alcohol at the time.
Bars and restaurants may post signs prohibiting guns, but Jackson’s hasn’t done so.
Smith was behind a successful lawsuit that struck down an earlier law that allowed guns only in businesses that primarily sold food in addition to alcohol. A judge ruled that law unconstitutional.
Both houses of the state’s legislature overrode a veto by Tennessee Gov. Phil Bredesen (D).
“The general duty clause of TOSHA says that an employer has a duty to protect and safeguard employees against recognized hazards to human health, safety and life,” Smith said.
Are lawfully carried guns in businesses that serve alcohol a danger to the establishment’s employees? Does it depend upon the record of violent incidents that have occurred at the bar or restaurant? Let us know what you think in the Comment Box below.
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Tags: David Randolph Smith, Gov. Phil Bredesen, guns and alcohol in bars, Tennessee OSHA
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September 13th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
See, and we were worried about the marijuana law.
September 14th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Why does one feel so compelled to bring a firearm in to a Bar and Bristo?
September 15th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Who’s that idiot who said guns and booze don’t mix? I think he got that statement right!
September 15th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Remember the 23 people shot dead in the Luby’s Cafeteria massacre in Killeen, TX in 1991? It went on for 15 minutes. There were people inside who would have been armed had they not been required by law at the time to leave their weapons in their vehicles. Suzanna Hupp watched her parents murdered, and and in 1995, as a state rep, was instrumental in getting the law changed. She had left her gun in her car.
Permit holders are not the problem. It doesn’t mean that everyone with a permit is going to be “packin’ heat”. I have a permit and I rarely carry, only when I believe my safety is at risk. Most permit holders I know rarely carry. Laws only work on the law-abiding.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
As a native Tennessean, I would like to say that this is the dumbest law ever. If you can’t see the gun (concealed weapon) how do you know if it is okay to serve them alcohol? And who goes to a bar and doesn’t drink - with a gun none the less? It’s just another opportunity for the country to look at us and think that Southeners are stupid. There are plenty of people who have been shot because someone went out to their car and came back with a gun. Having it with you just saves you the trip to the parking lot.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
99% of handgun carriers are responsible and honorable people. To get a permit in TN they are scrutinized by both the TBI & FBI. My occupation (non law enforcement) requires I have a gun permit, but I would not wear a weapon into a bar. It creates discomfort with the general populace and that creates distrust. If I saw an individual with a weapon on anywhere it does not concern me, though.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
I would tend to belive most “incidents” across the nation at these types of establishments involve illegal firearms and/ or those not authorized to carry them.
Also did the 9 incidents involving drunk and disorderly people have anything to do with allowing firearms or were they the types of incidents that could occur at any establishment?
September 15th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Seems to me it is just more people trying to use BS to stir up trouble. Instead of guns and booze, it would be more correct to say non-drinking people with guns in an establishment that serves alcohol. The law says if you are carrying, then you can’t be drinking.
Why would sober citizens, checked out and certified clean in order to get a carry permit, be a danger to somebody working in a bar?
Just spin and BS to make guns and gun owners look bad for absolutely no reason.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
If it is against the law to drink when armed - is is pretty unlikely that he will get drunk - unless he is willing to break the law. In that case, do you think a law telling him he can’t come into a bar armed would have worked?
Keep in mind, that these are concealed carry laws we are talking about. If the owner is so worried, post the sign, then only criminals will bring their guns. Oops, I guess that could be a problem too, couldn’t it.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
First, I’m not an idiot, but I say guns are not the problem. If someone wants to cause trouble, they can do so with any number of weapons: a knife, a bar stool, a broken bottle, etc. Guns get a bad rap because they have been the weapon of choice for so many. If guns had never been invented, we would be hearing about the “Knife and Sharp Objects Law”. So, you see, guns aren’t the problem; it’s more a problem of what situation we put ourselves into. Avoid putting yourself in situations where you want to kill people, and guess what - you probably won’t kill people. Yes, guns give people a sense of empowerment, but so does education. Personally, I would like to see the old fashioned fist fight version of settling disputes - take it like a man or walk. You still get a victor, usually, but you live to fight another day.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
The key word is lawfully carried. If a person carries a gun and drinks he is no longer within the confines of the law, they could and should be arrested.
In reality most citizens who have a concealed carry permit and carry a gun for their protection do not want to lose this right so they are very reluctant to use a gun unless it is truly a matter of life and death. It is far more likely that a person carrying a gun illegally, i.e. a member of the criminal element, would use a gun without concern for public safety.
In my opinion this is either a knee-jerk reaction or a political statement rather than a true concern for employee safety.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
When I started reading this article my thoughts were revolving around, “who thinks it is a good idea to allow a drunk person to carry a gun?” Then I read the line about not drinking if you are carrying a gun and the law started to make sense. If I follow the law and do not drink while carrying a gun into a bar under a permit to carry I see it as no different than carrying that same gun to a parade, amusement park or other public establishment where people gather and alcohol is consumed. I support citizens with permits in their right to carrying guns. The people I know who have permits to carry are very respectful and conservative in their use of their weapons.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
Lawfully carrying a gun is sort of like wearing underwear; you don’t take it off just to go into a restaurant or bar. As seen in the Texas McDonalds several years ago, threats to a person’s safety can occur in a restaurant and leaving the weapon outside strips one of the exact protections intended and offered to every person who chooses to exercise their right of defending themselves.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Actually, I am surprised that safety news would use such a BS spin title as the headline of their newsletter. I had thought better of them.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Everyone has the right to feel safe in there place of employment. I wouldnt want someone coming to my place of employment with a gun, and then add booze, no thanks
September 15th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Everyone brings a gun to the bar in Tennessee. It’s their right to carry brew and bare arms !
September 15th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
As long as the patron has a legal gun permit and is not consuming alcohol what is the difference whether he/she is at a restaurant/bar or any other establishment. I do not see how the employees are any less safe having an armed citizen in their establishment who is NOT under the influence than having possibly a room full of patrons who ARE under the influence of alcohol.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
I have had a CHL in Texas since the license was allowed and I carry all the time. I’ve never had an incident where I needed to draw the gun but there have been plenty of times it was very reassuring to know the gun was there within reach if I needed it. Texas also has the 51% rule so we can carry into restaurants etc. that do not get more than 51% of their income from alcohol. It is a silly rule because drunks can enter any establishment or open area with a person legally carrying a firearm. As long as the person carrying the firearm is acting within the law it shouldn’t matter where they carry. I have never seen or heard of an incident where a drunk took a gun away from an experienced gun owner. I have however seen many times where a drunk broke into a locked vehicle and stole items from it. When you force a citizen to lock their firearm in their car to enter a building for whatever reason you place more people in danger than you would if you just allowed him to keep it concealed and carry it in with him. If you have passed the background check and proficiency test and received a license to carry the gun you should be allowed to carry it anywhere.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Now, if an incident occurs in the bar involving someone bringing a gun into the establishment, will the bar be spared a fine from OSHA based on the general duty clause because of this case, since OSHA has already determined it is NOT a recognized hazard? Will those involved in an incident be able to sue OSHA for allowing the situation to exist? This case raises my eyebrow a bit . . . Also does a lack of previous injury give a pass to employers for not guarding against “recognized” risks through the general duty clause, because of a lack of precident? This case, based on the article, seems to suggest that as the case. It didn’t seem to help Walmart out with the case involving the employee being trampled by over anxious Christmas shoppers.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
It is the right of every American to carry a firearm. It doesn’t/shouldn’t matter where it is. The problem is, the small minority of people that cause problems speak so much louder than the large majority that don’t.
Men have the tools to rape, are they next on the chopping block since they “could be” a danger?
September 15th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
So what makes it unsafe? the alcohol or the guns? Law abiding gun owners dont commit gun crimes. When will the establishment accept this? Probably never, because it goes against the grain of thier agenda.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
In order to get a license to carry a weapon(other than hunting) I would hope that they have had an extensive backround check and the fact that they cannot drink alchohol when they are caryying the weapon is a good thing. But what about the other drunks that are there? If one of them gets ahold of it you never know what could happen.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
The Constitution of the United States guarantees the right of The People to keep and BEAR arms. Period. The complainant has no Right to work in a bar and in fact no RIGHT to any job at all. If they don’t like the conditions on the job, they can get another one.
“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” ~ Benjamin Franklin
If you don’t know why that is true, read “Original Intent - The Courts, The Constitution and Religion”, “The 5000 Year Leap”, and “A Patriot’s History of the United States.”
“Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. It is forgiveable. Stupidity is a lack of desire for knowledge. It is not.” ~ Unknown. I quote these things because if one is not willing to understand why we have a Second Ammendment - according to those who wrote it, not the johnny-come-lately revisionists - then one has no right to comment on it.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
Wacko right wingers are just as crazy as wacko left-wingers — only they are armed and dangerous.
The folks that oppose reasonable gun control are usually the best argument for supporting gun control. They are nuttier than Mr. Peanut!
September 15th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
While I don’t frequent “bars” I do like to go to the nicer restraunts that serve alchohol. Having had encounters with some who have had too much to drink and think my wife or daughter are free game as far as hitting on them or being overly friendly, the red dot from my 38 caliber handgun rapidly changes their attitude and defuses the situation quite rapidly. If drinkers would mind their own buisness and not think of themselves as ten feet tall and bullet-proof after a few drinks, this law would never have been considered in Tennessee, I feel. there are always those bleeding hearts that feel we should not have the rights to protect our selves, but I am going to do what it takes to protect myself and my family.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
The TN law only applies to handgun carry permit holders and not the general public who have no obligation to pay attention to this piece of legislation and who may be in the establishment without having gone to the trouble to get a carry permit.
HCP holders in TN are required to take a day long course costing anywhere from $75 to $100 with a written test they must pass and a skills test they must pass with a minimum 80% success. They then have to go to a driver’s testing center and stand in line to file with the state for the permit and pay a $115 fee for the permit application. They then have to pass a background check similar to one police officers must pass. To purchase the handgun they carry they also have to pass another background check verifying that there’s no record anywhere that they have been charged with drug possession or use or violence in a domestic dispute. After all that they’re not permitted to drink while carrying in Jackson’s or any other restaurant that serves alcohol on premises so alcohol isn’t “mixed with guns”.
Another nearby state that does not prohibit HCP holders from having a beer or glass of wine while at dinner (Indiana) wild west shoot outs haven’t been taking place with HCP holders and the floors haven’t run red with blood and booze due to the people that go to all the trouble to follow the law.
HCP holders are not the people that restaurant workers need to worry about.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Non drinking people legally carrying guns are unlikely to start trouble and would be a deterrant to those bad folks that might cause death or injury.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Perhaps we should also wonder if the petitioner, Mr Smith, is another self-serving volunteer for the anti-gun supporters since he has already been tied to the other decision process of just serving food.
I don’t believe that bringing a gun into any public serving establishment is by itself a workplace hazard. If so, we should appeal the decision and apply it all persons including law enforcement personnel who are licensed to carry firearms. What prevents the local lawmen from going off with their weapons Ohhhh… perhaps it is the doughnuts and free coffee that keeps them in check. So, just serve free doughnuts and coffee to those who are licensed to carry weapons. Keeping them fed, sober (coffee) and happy is the key to proper use of guns……… and a safer workplace.
September 15th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
A gun is an object. Steel, plastic, wood, etc. Objects do not create hazards. There are many objects in a restaurant if used improperly will produce an unsafe working enviroment.
Now leave me alone while I shoot the cap off my beer.
September 15th, 2010 at 3:18 pm
The law is more liberal in Utah. You are allowed to carry a firearm into a bar and you are allowed to have a drink while carrying the firearm. You are not allowed to be over the limit (which is the same as the DUI limit). Everyone in Utah knows that nearly everyone else is carrying a concealed weapon. There is no advantage for a single individual to start a conflict in a bar so it just doesn’t happen. On the other hand, if a person prone to conflict were to think they were the only one with a weapon in a bar they might consider starting a fight because they would think they had the advantage. Check the statistics on handgun related deaths between Washington DC and Utah. DC has over 20 times the handgun deaths that UTAH has.
September 15th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
LINDA….
Because it’s my constitutional right. And to be perfectly honest, that’s where a lot of rip-raff occurs.
But, the obvious answer is to carry all the time. “Bad guys” with bad intentions have no limits as to where they go and the police can’t protect you 24/7.
An armed society is a polite society. That’s why Alaska has a very low “break in your house” crime rate; cause most homeowners have firearms and the bad guys know they will be hauled away in a body bag if they break in.
As far as a workplace hazard, absolutely not. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people!
Just my .02
September 15th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Linda asked “Why does one feel so compelled to bring a firearm in to a Bar and Bristo?”
I am a large, bald, scary looking guy that people generally avoid conflict with, however I am now older, slower, adn fatter than the days of my youth. I also have 2 children 6 and under to protect in a world where random acts of insanity are perhaps statistically uncommon but trumpeted in the media daily. I have spent my life protecting others as part of my safety career and as a citizen that can’t watch a violent crime and do nothing. I carry in resturants not because I want to cause trouble but because I choose to be responsible for the safety of my family. I don’t drink when I am driving and don’t drink when I am carrying. Leaving the weapon in the car is a poor option precicely becasue people steal things from cars.
In my opinion this case is much ado about nothing. Statistics have shown in other states that virtually no permit holders commit crimes, but the justice department and some studies have shown that 2 million violent crimes are prevented each year by those that chose to protect themselves or their community.
September 15th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
Follow me here, the law states that if your are carrying a firearm you cannot drink. There for there is no danger from a law abiding citizen carrying a firearm into a drinking establishment. For those who say no one goes to a bar and does not drink. Consider this. Bars have parking lots. It is illegal to drink and drive and it is far more likely that a drunk driver will kill someone than a gun owner. So by the logic that those of you who feel the bar and OSHA should be responsible for legally carried firearms in the bar, you should feel even stronger that the bar and OSHA should be responsible for every drunk driver.
The point is that life involves risk. Safety is about negating probable dangers with reasonable measures. If we let ourselves go overboard we will be living in bubbles!
It should also be noted that where concealed carry laws have been enacted, violent crime rated have dropped. Armed citizens are a deterrent to criminals. Creating “safe places” by banning legally carried firearms only creates Safe Places for criminals.
September 15th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
ALAN…
You could not have said it any better sir! I, like yourself, have a moral obligation to protect my family.
September 15th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
Guns in public (not used for sporting) belong only in the hands of those people whose careers require their use, i.e.: police and other law enforcement personnel. It is their job and duty to “serve and protect” the community at large. They have been trained how to react to difficult or stressful situations where citizens are at risk. The average gun owner may have this training but doesn’t practice its application on a daily basis like law enforcement does.
September 15th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
I guess I miss the point of this article. Was the article about my right to lawfully carry a hand gun or was it about safety at my place of employment? If the article was about gun control then some good and bad comments were made. If we should be talking about work place safety then every person so far (in my opinion) missed the mark. One key factor we need to keep in mind is that this is a BAR and Bistro. Bars have a unique set of problems and to my way of thinking guns are low on the list. According to the article nine times a patron became drunk and disorderly. How many times were the patrons just drunk? Short of Prohibition what can TOSHA legislate to make the bar safe?
September 15th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Living in a city with one of the highest murder rates in the country, and plenty of law abiding citizens with permits, I don’t see how the permission to carry decreases the crime rate. Yes, we live in a world of risk. Yes, I believe that we have the right to bear arms. Yes, I own a gun, or two.
I know several restaurant and bar owners that are thoroughly upset by the passage of this law, because of the potential danger it could pose. Is that the right reaction? I don’t know, but it certainly changes the scenario. There are plenty of people that are liscensed, have been through the classes, and couldn’t shoot the broad side of a barn (if they weren’t on the range). Of course you can make a weapon out of anything. But if I get hit by a barstool, I have a pretty good chance of getting up and walking away. I’ll take a barstool over a bullet, stray or otherwise.
September 15th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Some people think the police carrying guns are adequate protection as the police ‘protect and serve’ us. The truth is they serve us by trying to catch the bad guy after you are robbed, raped, or killed. The guns are to protect themselves while trying to apprehend the bad guy that killed your undefended and unarmed family member.
September 15th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
i am one of those bleeding heart liberals…
However, if the opportunity comes up for an individual to pull thier legal concealed handgun and shoot a bad guy to save my McDonald’s pals from riff raff, I SAY HAVE AT IT! Oh, and Thanks.
I don’t advocate gun tottin, I don’t own a gun, but I also don’t use drugs, drive drunk, or steal. All activities which somewhere i beleive there are laws forbidding them. In either case whether there are laws saying you can carry or no one can carry you are going to have “LAW BREAKERS” even uniformed officers of the law have gone off and used their leagal wepons in unspeakable ways.
Mostly what i am reading is alot of bluster “You can’t tell me what to do!”, “Yes I can”.
We should all be law abiding and I will assume that everyone around me is. So if guns are allowed then thats law abbiding too.
September 15th, 2010 at 5:47 pm
Is it the lawfully carried gun or the lawfully consumed alcohol that causes the hazard to the employee? If as the article states there have been 9 instances of drunk and disorderly behavior at Jackson’s, did those patrons come into the establishment drunk and disorderly or did they become drunk and disorderly as a result of drinking the alcohol that is the basis of the business. I do not drink, but do have a concealed carry permit. I served 20 years in the military and have the utmost respect for the right granted me by the Constitution and the State to carry a firearm. It is not something in my experience that is taken lightly by any permit holder. However, I have known many who drink alcohol to excess and behave in a manner that is hazardous to themselves and anyone who happens to be in close proximity, inculding the employees of the establishment in which they are drinking. I could make a far better case that serving alcohol is a known occupational hazard rather than being in an establishment with a concealed carry permit holding, law abiding citizen, who is lawfully carrying a firearm.
September 15th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Oh…
I forgot to add my 2 cents on whether carrying a legal concealled weapon is a workplace hazard.
Breathing can be a workplace hazard, so yes and no. If everyone is law abbidding then no.
9 incidents at one bar, nowhere do they say any involve guns then i’m thinking the bar might be violating Tennessee law and serving excessive liquor to intoxicated individuals.
hmmmm…
is that a work place hazard?
Oh…
No its a capitalist scheme to increase the old tip intake.
September 15th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
People can cause harm and death with knives, chairs etc. but they cannot spray a room from a distance in minutes killing many people that is why guns are different from other weapons. Legal gun owners may all be wonderful and only law breakers without permits cause trouble, but do you really want to be caught between these two groups? Legal or not guns are a huge problem in this country. Too easy to get, too easy to use.
September 15th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
Scott, I hope you or, your family never need, the police. Even in cities with the best response times, it averages 4-1/2 minutes from the time dispatch receives a call before an officer is on the scene. I respect your decision to not protect yourself or your family, in turn you should respect others right to protect themselves and families.
Even that attitude does not fit with a safety culture environment. It is each of our RESPONCIBILITY to provide for our own safety, at work and in public, from many sources of danger. Relying on someone else to provide for your safety goes against what we are working for here.
September 15th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
SCOTT…
Without turning this topic into a concealed carry permit topic, you are so far off the mark (In my humble opinion) that rationalization it will do no good I beleive.
Bottom line is, it is our CONSTITUTIONAL right to carry a gun. With this CONSTITUTIONAL right, the individual has an ENORMOUS responsibility to educate him/herself with the laws and to stay proficient with the fire arm. And, some states do not require a permit to carry a weapon; my state in particular, Alaska.
Sure it is the duty of our law enforcment officers to “serve and protect”, but do you believe the cops can be in all places all of the time preventing all crime? Like it has been said, there have been many crimes prevented from law biding citizens with fire arms…more than the liberal media reports.
I will close with the following question: Are the cops going to protect you and your kiddos who are happily picking out thier favorite candy, when a drug crazed idiot walks into the local 7-Eleven that you’re at and starts shooting while demading money from everyone; then begins pistol whiping Mrs. Jones, or one of you’re kids till there’re counting sheep?
I think the answer is very obvious…
September 15th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
We here in Arizona also have a law like this. So far, there have been no, zero, zip, zilch, none, nada, not one incident involving a CCW holder getting drunk in a bar with a weapon. And now, we have a law that says that you won’t even have to have a CCW license to CCW. So far, no blood baths have taken place. We have had some legal, self defense shootings lately, but none near or in a bar.
As usual, there are some that blame the tool instead of the fool. One poster asked why you would go to a bar and not drink. Well, why would you? Because your having a get together with friends, and choose not to drink? Or maybe you’re a designated driver? Or maybe you’re a responsible gun owner (or driver) that knows that you should not drink and Carry (drive). That question presupposes that everyone goes to a bar to drink. Not true. Every Chili’s, Applebee’s, Buffalo Wild Wing’s, etc. has a bar. I go there with my family to eat, or with friends to watch a game. There are no metal detectors to catch anyone carrying, legally or otherwise. So, law abiding citizens are a danger to employees, but illegally carrying people are not? Does that thinking also apply to the parking lot? How many businesses have had someone drive into their walls? How many people have been held up in the parking lot?
Then there is the last poster that says “Guns in public (not used for sporting) belong only in the hands of those people whose careers require their use, i.e.: police and other law enforcement personnel” and “average gun owner may have this training but doesn’t practice its application on a daily basis like law enforcement does”. Again, this kind of wishful, Pollyanna thinking is dangerous. There are large numbers of law-enforcement that never have to use their weapons, much less pull them, on a daily basis. There are law-enforcement that only fires a weapon during annual qualification. Many more have never trained or survived an “incident” where they would have to use deadly force. On the other hand, a law abiding citizen that takes his or her gun ownership seriously would take a CCW class, and additional training, if they wanted. The armed citizen, for the most part, also shoots more per year than most law enforcement. And do not forget, Scott, just because you may not be familiar with a firearm, does not mean that the huge number of former law enforcement, ex-military, hunters, shooting sport enthusiasts, security guards, first responders, etc. are also unfamiliar.
All told, I believe that it is to each business, as it is to each person, if they want to tolerate firearms near them. As always, if you don’t want to patronize or work there, there are many other places to go.
September 16th, 2010 at 6:19 am
Scott, the Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no duty to protect you or me. They cannot be held responsible for your safety. Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. They will be happy to look for the person who killed you. That person would be a criminal, not a responsible, licensed gun owner. Read Alan and Greg’s comments above. They are correct in everything they said. It’s strange to me that folks like us that are pro-gun can quote studies and statistics to support our argument, but there are none to support the argument for gun control. Everywhere that guns are banned violent crime rates go up. Great Britian and Australia are fine examples of how gun bans don’t work. Canada has experienced some pain with it as well, and their citizens are beginning to push back. The Brady campaign is running on empty right now because they just can’t convince anyone with an open mind that they are right. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not in favor of the public carrying firearms in public buildings, such as court houses. They should be secure. However, in any place that isn’t secured by armed employees, licensed carry should be allowed.
September 16th, 2010 at 6:35 am
Also, if I understand the law correctly, a business owner can chose not to allow guns in their place of business. All they have to di is post a notice stating guns are not allowd. Some have, and I don’t have a problem with that. It’s their business.
One more suggestion and I’ll go away. Just because the law now allows licensed gun owners to carry in establishments that serve alcohol, do any of really believe that criminals already weren’t? Be honest!
September 16th, 2010 at 8:19 am
In my opinion, the title of this article is written in a way to stir up BS. Everyone should research the means and intent of the gun carrying permit law. One question I would like answered is about the nine incidents( or two ) depending on which side you believe, is were those disorderly calls related to law abiding sober gun carriers, or lawbreaking public drunk and disorderlies? In my opinion, the employees should more worried about their drunk customers fighting because someone looked at their girlfriend, than sober patrons who happen to be carrying a handgun.
September 16th, 2010 at 9:54 am
Neither the presence of alcohol nor firearms (nor the combination) creates a hazard in the workplace. And the notion that only law enforcement ’should’ have firearms is indefensible both factually and constitutionally. Ask anyone in law enforcement: the overwhelming majority of people who presently carry concealed firearms are untrained criminals who have no respect for the law or for the lives/property of others. Permitted carriers have virtually no record for criminal activity. Our constitution provides for the right of every citizen to be armed. I carry, and I carry almost everywhere I go. I carry for the same reason I have a spare tire, jack, first aid kit, fire extinguisher, and insurance. I carry for the same reason I have a winch on my four-wheel drive vehicle. And, by the way, I don’t drink so I’m often the designated driver; meaning I often go to a bar but do not consume alcohol.
September 16th, 2010 at 10:53 am
Wow! i am absolutely amazed at how many people think that having a gun in a bar is OK. when i first saw this, i thought it was a joke. my problem with guns is at one point every gun is purchased legally. the problem is what happens to them when mister “it’s my constitutional right to protect my family at the rough Applebees down the street” decides to sell his gun and somehow it ends up in the wrong hands, or when little Johhny happens to know where the key to dad’s supposedly locked up gun is and decides to shoot up his grade school. if you want to stock your house with guns in preparation for the end of times, go crazy.”oops too late” but be responsible for your weapon until it is no longer a threat to anyone or be held accountable for what it does when it is no longer in your possession. “guns don’t kill, people do” what a crock. guns do kill people period. by all means let’s have everyone required to cary guns, then we can have shootouts in the street, just like the old west. who says evolution is not still going on. unbelievable.
September 16th, 2010 at 11:22 am
I have a concealed carry permit and carry everywhere that is legal. It is unfortunate that the places where you might need protection from criminals are usually the places that are restricted.
Banks, Bars, etc. I have had many times where I have had to not patronize a business just because they serve alcohol.
How many people’s lives could have been saved if employees, teachers, and patrons were allowed to carry. When someone goes “POSTAL” it is usually in a place where personal protaction is not allowed. Schools, hospitals, bars, employers, etc.
How many times have you had some druggie/ addict come up to you demanding/ asking for money? It happens to me about every month. You never know what these people are going to do.
The only time I had trouble in a bar was with criminals who were on probation who were not even supposed to be there and were violating the terms of their probation.
They were armed and I was not. Luckily I was able to disarm them quickly and have security escort them out but not everyone has 20+ years of Combat Martial Arts Training.
September 16th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
ROBERTA :
I respect that we all have a right to a differing opnion. But all due repsect ma’am, you are comparing the effectivness of the weapons and not the genesis of the issue; the idiot with the weapon regardless of what is used.
Guns are NOT the problem, and are you are factually wrong when you say thay are easy to use. Guns are MUCH harder to use than a knife. Knives are much more intuitive as compared to firearms.
Please, I ask that you do yourself a favor; don’t keep believeing that the police will be there to protect you and your family when the time arrises…
Now I’ll shut up.
September 16th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
I like that a couple of posts point out that the question being decided is, “Are lawfully carried guns in businesses that serve alcohol a danger to the establishment’s employees?”
I think several other posts do a good job of supporting the answer being no. The strongest argument in my opinion is that the person in possession of a gun is not allowed to drink alcohol while carrying. This lowers the chances of an altercation involving their gun. I agree with many of you that drunkeness is more likely to put an employee in danger than a CCW carrying gun owner because when a human is drunk they act more spontaneously and violently than when sober - I know many more angry drunks than happy ones.
All the gun owners I know are very possessive of their weapons so the idea of someone removing it from their person to use in a bar is far fetched in most circumstances.
September 16th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
WILL…
For the love of God, please explain to us how does a “gun” kill somebody? And I say PROUDLY “Yes, it IS our CONSITUTIONAL RIGHT” regardless of what you and the anti-gun crowd believe. Have you liberals lost what the purpose of the constitution is?
Answer this: (1.) Does the person who commited the crime with a weapon get charged with the crime or does the device he/she used get charged? (2.) Does the gun, knife, bill club, car, brass knuckles, or ANY other device used to kill another do the time behind bars? (3.) How do you hear about a killing on the 6 o’clock news? “A semi-automatic Glock 27 killed a 30 year old worker today in a hold-up at the 7-Eleven?”
However, you can rest assured there ARE responsible law-biding folks that would/will protect you when/if you need it, if the situation arrises thanks to US, law-bidding gun carrying citizens; I would.
Also, how would you “honestly” feel if “Mr. it’s my constitutional right to protect my family at the rough Applebees down the street” actually saved your life or your son little Johnny”, with the use of a fire arm? Boy, I bet you would have a change of heart then; most reasonable folks would.
In my state, it’s ILLEGAL to have a fire arm in a bar or in a place that alcohol can be consumed while sitting down. So, in turn, only the idiots and bad guys are going to have them. The responsible owner is NOT going to carry in a place ,that is prohibited by law.
Guns are no more dangerous in the workplace than knives; it’s the BEHAVIOR of the person BEHIND the weapon!
And, OSHA has no business stepping in on this matter…Period!
September 16th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
Roberta Knights Says:
September 15th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
People can cause harm and death with knives, chairs etc. but they cannot spray a room from a distance in minutes killing many people that is why guns are different from other weapons. Legal gun owners may all be wonderful and only law breakers without permits cause trouble, but do you really want to be caught between these two groups? Legal or not guns are a huge problem in this country. Too easy to get, too easy to use
Well, Roberta, are you aware that a knife wound is more likely to be fatal than a bullet wound? Are you aware that, according to the FBI reports, as gun ownership and and CCW has increased, violent crime has steadily decreased?
Of course you are not aware of these things. You are simply regurgitating the lies and BS ladled out by the anti-gun groups.
As to the safety of the complaining employee, from all evidence, from all experience, and from all FBI reports, this employee is much safer since sober, honest, reliable citizens are allowed to enter the bar armed. TOSHA should award this bar owner a prize for having sense enough to improve the safety of himself, his employees and his customers by allowing citizens with a CCW to come in his bar armed. And again, Safety News should be ashamed for the obvious vile spin they put on the title of this article.
September 16th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
Again - let’s step back and take this out of a “love guns/2nd Amendment” issue vs. “Hate guns/gun owners are evil” issue and look at this from a perspective of private property. If you don’t want someone to carry a gun into your home, you have that right. I submit that so does the owner of a bar/store/shopping mall - Period. The problem only gets complicated when you look at it from a civil rights perspective. The government has established that private owners of “public” establishments do not have a right to discriminate against allowing a person to enter their establishment based on their race, sex, ethnicity, religon, etc. So, why can’t the same government tell bar owners they can’t discriminate against gun owners?? Simple - you are born with your race/sex/ethnicity/etc., and can’t do anything about it - so it is wrong to discriminate. Carrying a gun is a choice, and the owner of private property should have the right to choose whether or not he/she wants a gun on the premises - Period. I own and carry guns, but I also respect the right of a property owner to tell me I can’t have it on thier premises. If I disagree, I’ll simply go to a different bar. If persons working for a bar/restaurant that allows guns, they have the “freedom” to be “free” and work somewhere else. That is why, I believe, that OSHA doesn’t want to get involved - that coupled with the fact that a psycho can just as easily go home or to the car and get a weapon to use if they are bent on mayhem. I admit, however, that workplace homicide is one of the top four causes of death at the workplace. But I will also say (as many others here did) that a gun is just a tool used to commit homicide, and there are many other tools available in the absence of guns (bombs, knives, sticks, baseball bats, cars, cars packed with explosives, airplanes, etc., etc.). Unless we can get rid of them all, your life will always be fraught with risk (sorry). Unfortunately, if you want to live in a “free” society, you are forced to either give up some security, or rely more on yourself for that security. If you want total security, then you will be forced to give up much of your freedom. But, from the perspective of property rights, it is up to the property owner to decide - not OSHA, gun owners, or gun haters.
September 17th, 2010 at 9:18 am
The answer to this whole thing is if that employee doesn’t feel safe where he’s working then CHANGE JOBS! This has nothing to do with being safe and everything to do with that peice of garbage liberal lawyer Smith trying to use a back door to take way your 2nd amendment rights.
March 10th, 2011 at 3:15 pm
C Jones, utah
It is not legal in Utah to drink and carry as you have stated. It is within the the law in Utah to carry in drinking establishments if you are not a consumer of alcohlic beverages and the owner has not prohibited CCW permit holders from entering their private property.
I have been a permit holder for over twenty years and though I do not drink for my own reasons, I appreciate the fact that I can enter a establishment with a friend without giving up my right to defend myself.
To those who say leave the gun fights to the cops, when a gun is pulled, the person on the other end usually has less than 25 seconds to save his hind end. Would you prefer to call the cops or would you prefer to be armed?… Ninety percent of the time when a gun is drawn in self defence, no shots are ever fired.
March 10th, 2011 at 5:30 pm
C JONES:
Thank you; very well said! Now that folks…is rational thinking.