Unfortunately lessons are sometimes learned the hard way. We ask the youngsters and the “veterans” how they get out of pick up truck and obviously get two opposite responses – jumping out or crawling out very slowly.

OSHA was formed because some companies thought their employees were expendable and also because some workers are too dumb to figure out that if it feels or smells bad then it probably isn’t good for you so you should look out for your own health and safety and ask questions – thus MSDS.

I can tell you horror story after story. Like the student in a class who’s brother in law had the guard wedged up on a portable circular saw who was going down to trim deck boards while the other was about to stand up after picking up tools underneath the deck and had the saw buried into his head requiring 180 stitches. We see two extension ladders duct taped together, personal fall arrest systems tied off with bent over nails – oh and how about the OSHA standard 1926.153(b) – “Welding is prohibited on (LP-Gas) containers.” They had to make a law or rule because someone tried to do it and most likely blew him self up! Sorry I can’t help you with dumb and stupid but if you need training I can help.

Our legal system has a lot to do with rules too. Read every operator’s manual for every tool or the label on any box of nails and it will require you to wear safety glasses – “common sense” – apparently not. Someone didn’t wear proper eye protections and look out for their own safety – their own piece of equipment and lost an eye and was told they deserve some money and sued. Self accountability – what a novel idea in today’s society. As the Eagles say “Get over it…”

Companies are in business to make money which creates jobs. Foreman have better things to do than walk around job sites and tell people to wear hard hats and safety glasses so we have to make it a rule on job sites. Budgets, schedules, quality and safety are all part of the process.

If a person doesn’t abide by the rules at my house – they are not invited back – simple as that. Job site rules to get the job done good, fast, on time and SAFE.

It’s people like you that OSHA was established in the first place.

An injury or death on your part doesn’t just affect you. It affects your place of employment financially in many ways. It also affects your family at home, when they have to do the the responsibilities that were originally yours.

Furthermore, eliminating OSHA all together would mean that companies will cut corners everywhere that safety is concerned. NO eye protection would be supplied. No forklift training would take place. No machinery would be properly guarded.

I think you should rethink your position and give everyone else a break.

Punishment isn’t always the answer. Finding incentive programs that keeps safety on their minds is something to look into.

Forest, I’ve been told many times that for every dollar invested in safety saves you $6 on the bottom line. To figure that out you have to realize all the hidden costs associated with an injured employee. The costs of workman’s comp, the cost to train someone to fill in for them. The missed work time. It depends on the severity of the injury but if you just consider what it would cost you if someone should break their hand on the job you can get an idea.

There are weekly rewards programs that are better then an annual safety incentive bonus. Just something to think about.

OSHA penalities should go into a correction account that would be funded by the employer for the benefit of safety for his employees. Failure to correct the issues should result in managerial penalties that impact the individual’s wallet and should include the employee if it is shown that he/she intentionally and knowingly contributed to the problem. Safety is everyones responsibility and so should be the penalities.

The first rule of safety is to be aware of ones surrounding and the devices one must deal with. The second rule is to correct the unsafe condition, through work place procedures, engineered devices, training an duse of PPE. Sometimes everything we do and can do isn’t enough.

As a employer trying to do our best to provide good employment and a safe place for our employees to work, we find ourselves in an environment of ever increasing difficulties. For American manufacturing to survive OSHA should work with companies to improve safety and not attempt to put them out of business with their immediate exorbitant fines and seemingly little concern about the health of the American Companies that fall in their tracks.

Building owners in construction should demand compliance from their contractors and consider that they to could be drawn into civil action by attornies representing contractors employees who are injured on the job site.

The punishment should fit the crime and knowingly allowing someone to possibly get seriously injured or killed is worth more time in prison than a minor violation.

If they see that the Supervisor is playing an active role in enforcing the company’s safety policies they will leave him alone. The tell tale that the supervisor is not enforcing safety is by the lack of safety violation write-ups. When it is apparent the the Supervisor has been playing an active role they will hold the person causing the accident liable for their negligence.

If a company representative tells the OSHA inspector that they don’t have anyone that conducting themselves safely, all the inspector has to do is look around him and can see the signs that he’s being fed garbage. A couple indications would be skid marks left by a forklift or the scratched paint on the forklift.

And Robert’s assertion that Supervisors are in constant oversight of their employee’s actions/activities is belied by the modern work environment, with self-directed teams, wide spans of supervision, and flattened organizational structures. Supervisors no longer sit on the shoulder of their employees in most plants, and they have their own responsibilities and work to complete.

I’m referring more in the field of manufacturing. Where people have someone watching over them.

A forklift operator is responsible for the safety of all those around him. Often times a forklift operator will start backing up without first looking behind him or honk his horn. If he were to hit someone that forklift operator is going to get into trouble, but so will his supervisor for allowing him to operate that forklift in the unsafe manner to begin with.

Robert, you said “I agree with the changes. If someone dies then someone goes to jail.”

In our industry, we employ truck drivers. 200 drivers head out each day on 200 different routes. Most of our injuries and fatalities happen because the employees fail to follow rules and practices they were trained to do. Unless we hired 200 supervisors to follow each driver every day, then enforcement is difficult. If one of our drivers fails to buckle a seatbelt before driving a truck off a cliff, walks behind another truck that is backing up, of falls off his truck while tarping a load, then people like you would want a supervisor to go to jail because they didn’t enforce the rules. Perhaps, someone from upper management should be imprisoned, because they didn’t hire the 200 supervisors.

If laws like this are passed and enforced, then there will be a mass shortage of people willing to become a supervisor, or prices of everything will skyrocket.

Some would argue that saving one life is worth any cost. If that’s true, then why don’t we cut speed limits on the highways to 5 MPH. Wouldn’t that save lives? I wonder why we don’t do that?

If you have doubts to whether or not you company is in compliance you can call your workman’s comp to send an representative out to inspect.

Also understand that what OSHA is getting established now is already in effect in Europe. Europe has a much stricter safety enforcement then here in the States.

I agree with the changes. If someone dies then someone goes to jail.

If you are the Supervisor, then you are directly responsible for the safety of the people under you. The employees that are in violation of a safety rule is in need of more training. It is up to the supervisors to deal with it. I see all too much of the Supervisors thinking they can leave it up to the safety manager to take care of it.

The Safety Manager has done his/her part by getting the information out there by way of safety meetings and routine inspections. It is up to the Supervisors to enforce the rules.

Fact of the matter is, it is the Supervisors that will face jail time. If the Safety Manager is slack in doing the training and indoctrinating people then he stands to be sued separate from the company. The company itself can be sued.

Most of you Supervisors won’t believe this until it actually happens to you. This is especially sensitive if you have machinery such as forklifts involved.

Companies don’t put much into Safety like they should. Many have to watch their costs especial in today’s economy but what many general managers don’t understand is that an injured employee costs them more then just the insurance payment. There is the hidden costs that they don’t see, such as lost time an having to train someone to fill in for the person that is out. There is the added wages that go into tending the person by supervisors and such that have to fill out reports and investigate the accident.

For the person that stated that they should do away with OSHA, maybe you ought to go work in a coal mine without any respirator.

Example: Transportation – One of the top 10 most dangerous occupations is driving trucks/transporting goods on the public highways. Lots of recognized hazards there. What measures would it take to eliminate all of them, and where do we draw the line? In order to eliminate them all, you would pretty much have to shut down the entire transportation industry. Hazards eliminated and mission accomplished, right? How would this affect other businesses, and are we willing to allow this to happen?

Be careful what you ask for in government. You may get it.

George Washington said – “Government is not reason; it is not elequent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”

The inspector said that since we knew about it and hadn’t done anything about it, we were therefore neglegent.

An employee “deliberately” removed the guard, and we were “neglegent” for not fixing it or placing it out of serve, and were charged for “willfully violating a safety rule”. If an employee were to have been seriously injured or killed, it seems to meet the criteria for criminal proceedings. Does the busy foreman, or his manager deserve prison time?

When we allow any agency to have that much power over us, we run the risk of having something that feels good and initially sounds wonderful turn into a nightmare. i.e. “Punish the bad guys, becuase they deserve it” or “How can that not be viewed as positive?” These laws always have unintended consequences and eventually go beyond the original intent. One activist judge who hates corporations makes makes a ruling, and if it sticks, becomes precidence for the next case.

And yes, I do agree that the criteria need to be firmly established. As previously stated, the inspection standards deviate from one OSHA inspector to another. Are there companies out there that have a blatant disregard for workers’ safety? Yes, and luckily they are few and far between (I had a plant manager tell me once, regarding a migrant worker’s injury, “those people are tougher than a cur dog and there’s more where he came from”). Should those companies and the people who “willfully” allow these things to happen be held criminally liable for that blatant disregard? In my humble opinion, yes. And should workers who “willfully and deliberately” violate safety rules and regulations be held to the same standard as the employer? Again, yes.

I also think Kenny hit the nail on the head. There seems to be a preponderance of people trying to “get something for nothing”, with the legal system helping all along the way. Lack of respect for safety, and the long term consequences of individual actions, becomes secondary to a big money pay-off. Perhaps the change doesn’t need to be with OSHA, but the overall justice system. When a woman can spill a cup of coffee in her lap while driving and be awarded millions of dollars because she “didn’t know it was hot”, then the problems go much bigger than this forum.

I am a firm believer in safety training, documentation and penalizing companies that fail intentionally to protect their employees. OSHA however, needs to take into consideration the actions of employees and the role they play when it comes to safety. Employees who flagrantly push aside safety practices and cause themselves or others to be harmed should be penalized as well, especially if there is documentation that shows they have been trained. Management needs to communicate that safety is not a one sided deal in which the company provides the PPE and training. Employees must accept responsibility for personal safety and the safety of fellow workers, help to enforce it, and report situtations that are unsafe. In addition employees must refuse to perform task in which there is no safety procedure in place to assure the well being of employees and property.

Employees are getting coached in every language as to how to get something for nothing, and lawyers play a major role in the ‘Mis-Conduct’ attitudes. It is err apparent that the employee faces no consequences for thier actions except to lose a job, and go somewhere else to try again.

I really know a lot of good personnel in the field, staff, and owners that are committed to a safe workplace. My comments are not to those who do a great job or even good at making a workplace safer. I have been in the shipyard industry, worked offshore, construction and 16 years with two (2) world players in the chemical industry. No employee wants the pain of getting hurt, but if there is no repercussion for their roles and responsibilities, then there will always be an innocent person hurt in the end, whether it is prison, fines, or pain.

As Steve said above with respect to OSHA’s unchecked power, and comments from others concerning lack of knowledge in OSHA from others only provides an open door to prosecution. Employee’s and Companies alike should share the successes and penalties.

Another problem in handing such power to OSHA inspectors is that, as OSHA becomes increasingly politicized, we are likely to see OSHA being used as a tool to punish companies that don’t follow the Washington script. We are already seeing this from the EPA, and it’s unlikely that OSHA would fail to follow suit.